DTR: worth defining?

This is our first attempt at blogging real time together.  Clearly this will lead to Pulitzer Prizes and nominations for the Nobel Peace Prize for tackling this important topic between men and women.

The question is this- what is the purpose of the DTR ("defining the relationship")?  Why do people want it? What is behind it for men and women?  What drives it? And why is it necessary?  Are all bets off until you have it?

Sarah just finished the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus".  For those who have not read it- please please please pick it up.  It emphasizes the differences between the thought process of women and men.  For example- on Mars- it is seen as a sign of weakness to ask for help or to share emotions (this is where MEN live).  However, on Venus- asking for help and talking about feelings is seen as normal and something that invites friends into your life.  So let's discuss the ultimate feeling- the feeling of love- and more importantly- when to define what you are feeling with the person you are feeling it with.  WHEN DO YOU NEED THE LABEL!?!?!?!

Karl will go first.  Sarah poses the question- Karl- what does the word relationship mean to you and why are men so scared to define what a relationship is with one person?

(drum roll....)....


The word relationship scares me in general. I feel like it is not just about being with one person but giving up the life you used to live. It's about not being able to go play basketball when you want or having to check in with the " girlfriend" before you do. It's about having to deal with the ups and downs that any relationship inevitably has without having the option to just leave.  For some reason when I say I'm dating someone it seems so much more harmless than the R word. This means I have the option to get out.  It means I'm not trapped forever. It means I'll never be truly "whipped." Now let's hand it over to Sarah who probably hates me right now!

Sarah...

Thank you, Karl.  Women LUUUUUUUUUUUUUV defining relationships.  Why?  Because it give us a reason to get PISSED at your when you F@#$ up!  If I'm your "girlfriend" and you ask another girl for her number- I can be mad.  If you make out with another girl- I can get PISSED! Until we are defined... I have no right to get mad - there is NO expectation of exclusivity.  That is why women like to define the relationship- it offers "security" and a verbal contract (yes I'm a lawyer) that you will see only each other until told otherwise.  It provides clarity and women LOVE clarity.  It means everything to us.  We want to define things early and often... we want to know we are the last thing you think of when you go to bed and the first thing you think of in the morning.  We don't want to worry about you with other women... we want to know where we stand.  For these reasons- women LOVE to define relationships and it is extremely important- b/c if you are not manning up and showing a girl how much she means to you through actions and words- this is all we have to hang on to.

Karl?

Sorry. I'm back now. I was running away scared out of my mind by what I just read. But seriously, let's address the second sentence here. Women are always looking for ways to get mad at us. I feel like I spend half my time apologizing for shit I don't even know what I'm apologizing for.  Half is actually being nice. I'd say a solid 76%. Now maybe this is because I'm just an idiot which is probably true, but why are girls so freaking strict? Sometimes I want to lay in my bathrobe with chicken wings and drink beer by myself. I still like you but I want some man time.

Addressing the security issue. If I'm not secure with a girl then she's not worth my time.  I'll just go kayaking on the Potomac and listen to Phil Collins.  In fact, I've been known to encourage my significant other to talk to other guys. At the end of the night I know she is coming home with me so why should I be concerned?

Sarah: How long is it okay to " just have fun" without defining the relationship?

Thanks, Karl.  The lawyer in me will give you the lawyer-ly answer- IT DEPENDS!!!!  (that's what keeps us in business FYI).  If I'm engaging in heavy physical activity with a guy- I would expect he is not doing the same with someone else.  However, I recognize this is an insecurity with myself and not something I can actually expect.  I've been guilty of saying to my brother "oh well I hooked up with him, that means we are exclusive".... to which Mark (my brother) will say "uuuuuuh hell no!".

Girls are vulnerable- when we physically put ourselves out there we want to think we are the only egg in a guy's basket.  We know this is not really the case.  So there is a balance that women have to internally fight between wanting to define something when WE want it defined and when it is probably more "socially acceptable" to define things.  So we wait... and wait... for the right time to bring it up.  Is it a month? Is it two months? 

It just depends how the relationship is going.  I tend to be kinda girly and if it's been two months- I'm going to ask.  Hey dude- where do I stand?  It's not meant to be threatening but hey just let me know what to expect.  I think guys get REALLY scared off by this question but MEN LISTEN- it is NOT meant to scare you off- girls just really want to know where they stand.  If men say- we are not exclusive guess what women think??? Freaking HALL PASS!!!! 

We don't get sad (ok some do but those girls need to not be so lame).  Again, it all comes down to clarity.  If I'm dating a guy and I think we are exclusive and i ask and he says otherwise- guess what- I'm going back off.  You get what you put into it. We want clarity and until you give it to us- don't expect us to be sitting at home on  Friday night waiting for you to call.  BOOYA

Karl:

Hall Pass was a great movie by the way. Saw it on an Airplane.  Anyway,  let me just say that my old motto has always been " have your cake and eat it too for as long as you can." That's how a lot of men think. I know, shameful.  However, I've found recently that when you do meet the right girl you are excited to tell people about her and define the r...situation.  See I'm still scared of the R word.  Anyway, there really isn't any set timetable for defining a relationship.  A lot of times girls think guys don't want to define the relationship because they want to have relations with other girls. That is sometimes true. but really it is because we don't want to give up our freedom. 

What are your thoughts? Facebook friends please respond.

The Notebook: Does Love Like That Still Exist?

Introduction:

Karl and Sarah will be blogging together in format that invites a male and female perspective to an issue.  They only consult on the topic and not their responses (other than minor editing for grammar).  This blog will provide a pure he/she perspective.  Both responses are below.

KARL:

So it's not gonna be easy. It's gonna be really hard. We're gonna have to work at this every day, but I want to do that because I want you. I want all of you, for ever, you and me, every day." -The Notebook

I love "chick flicks" and I am happy to admit it. In fact, I don't understand why more guys don't like them or rather don't admit they do. Don't you go to the movies to feel happy? I do. That is what these movies do. But I digress....

 Tuesday night I watched the Notebook for the first time in years. For anyone who hasn't seen it I won't go into details on the storyline, but it is basically the best love story ever this side of Love Actually. As I was watching the story of Allie and Noah I got to thinking, could this happen in today's world? Does the true love they had for each other still exist? Or has it ever existed? The answer to both of these questions is; Absolutely.

 Let's talk about love for a second. Love makes no sense. The people that look best for us on paper often turn out to be totally wrong for us in the end. I've always thought my dream girl would be a 2pac loving, kayaker, that plays basketball and likes Dunkin Donuts, but we probably wouldn't get along. Chemistry is not something that can be explained, it just happens.

 I disagree with the old adage that there is one person for everyone. That's simply not true. At the same time there probably are only about 100 people in the world that you truly belong with. Only a lucky few of us ever meet that one person, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop looking.
 Back in the day there were less options. There were no phones or emails to communicate in between dates. You had your time with the girl or guy and then had to wait until the next time you saw them to continue  your courtship.  Yes, technology has changed love, but it hasn't changed its inner core. Sure, you can text, email, skype, and whatever else kids do these days, but you actually have to be with that person for love to grow. 
 The culture of love has changed a lot as well. The divorce rate is 50% with another 20% probably only staying with each other out of comfort. With online dating people from all over the world can now get together. People are marrying at a later age and some choose not even to get married. We have grown into more of an independant culture, which is in itself is a good thing. However, where does that leave true love?
 I've never felt about anyone like Noah felt for Allie, but I do believe she's out there. I think love conquers all. Life is unpredictable. You have bad days and good days. But if you find love nothing else really matters. If at the end of the day you can go home to your Allie or Noah everything is okay in this world. We should all strive for this kind of love because all of us deserve it. Remember, you never know when you'll meet that one person that you can't live without.

SARAH:

Reflections on “The Notebook”… Does Love Like That Exist Today

So Karl just got done watching the movie The Notebook.  Whenever anyone tells me they have seen the movie The Notebook, I immediately reply that the book / movie was based on the life of my grandparents.  Ok fine, maybe Nicolas Sparks did not really spy on my Nana and Bubbie, but their story is pretty close… And of course- I can not wait to share it with you:

While Nana attended Marquette University during WWII, her college roommate had a brother serving in the South Pacific.  One day, the roommate told the ladies of the dorm floor that men in her brother’s unit were looking for women to write back home.  The roommate placed all of the names of the men looking for pen-pals into a hat and each lady drew a name.  Jean Jocelyn (aka NANA) chose Howard Grenell (aka BUBBIE).  For the next few months the people who would become known as Nana and Bubbie wrote letters back and forth.  They bonded over both being from Wisconsin and compared stories about where they each grew up.  Nana had grown up on a dairy farm and Bubbie had grown up in the city of Milwaukee (clearly I also suspect that they were also the subject of Green Acres).  After much writing, Bubbie informed Nana of his leave to return home and that he would like to see her during his stay.  Nana wrote Bubbie with her telephone number and waited to hear from him… and waited… and waited… It was not until the last day that Bubbie was home on leave that he decided to finally call Nana.  As he would tell the story years later- he feared she would be ugly.  Once they finally met, Bubbie immediately fell for Nana, and Nana fell for Bubbie.  Bubbie told Nana before returning to the South Pacific that she would know Bubbie was home for good when she received two dozen red roses.  Nana’s interjection at this point of the story would be “so I figured yea… I’ll never hear from this guy again!”. 

Time passed and the War drew to a close.  One day Nana was walking up to her dorm room and saw a flower delivery truck in front of her building.  A delivery man was about to take a bouquet of two dozen red roses into Nana’s building.  She stopped the delivery man and said “Excuse me! Who are those flowers for?!”  The man replied “Jean Jocelyn”.  “THAT’S ME!” she said.  She promptly took the flowers and tore open the attached card which simply read “I’ll pick you up at 8pm – Howard”. 

What started as the most romantic story I ever heard continued as such the remaining days of my grandparent’s lives.  Having the pleasure of knowing both for 30 years, I have never seen two people more in love than my grandparents.  I never heard Bubbie say one mean thing about Nana, and I never heard Nana say one mean thing about Bubbie.  They simply adored each other, and in each other’s eyes- the other was perfect. 

Just like The Notebook, Nana was stricken with Alzheimers Disease.  Bubbie cared for Nana for years on his own and never complained.  After all he was still with his Jean.  When Nana became too ill for Bubbie to take care of, Nana went to an Alzheimher’s facility.  Bubbie wrote Nana just like they had in the War, and his face was one of the only faces she recognized at the very end.  Nana passed away in April of this year and Bubbie followed just five short months after.  I got to see Bubbie before he passed away, and he almost seemed excited to go to heaven- he knew he would be with his love again.   

Now as you readers wipe tears from your eyes, I’m going to give my thoughts on whether this type of undying love still exists.  I write this as a single 30 year old woman, who had the Nana / Bubbie relationship by which to compare all of my relationships.  I am here to argue that Nana / Bubbie love can still exist- even in this post-feminist and narcissistic age in which we currently live.  This love exists if there is a mutual respect in a relationship and an appreciation that there are no perfect people in this world, only people perfect for us.  This love exists by choice. 

I think back on my past relationships and I truly feel the break down occurred based on  those two principals- respect and an expectation of perfection.  Nana and Bubbie had the utmost respect for one another.  That respect translated into trust and the ability to rely on the other without a second thought.  Additionally, in each other’s eyes, the other was perfect.  Were they perfect? Of course not! Something I loved about Nana was that she could be one of the most straight forward bitches (SORRY NANA!!!!) you’ve ever met!  If you messed with her or her family- you were promptly informed of where you stood… and often times never let to forget.  Bubbie on the other hand was honest to a fault.  For example, as many college coeds tend to do, I gained the freshman errrrr 40.  While losing weight Bubbie would tell me how in just 10 more pounds… I would be GORGEOUS!  So were Nana and Bubbie perfect human beings that we can never aspire to be like? No.  But were they perfect for each other? Yes.  Did Bubbie expect Nana to not speak her mind and be “perfect”? No!  Did Nana yell at Bubbie for being overly honest if something made her look fat? No! There was no expectation of perfection, just an expectation that they were perfect for each other and that truly made everything else come easy. 

I would argue that our current generation has made a choice to lose sight of these two principals- respect and not wanting perfection.  I think our egos often get in the way of respecting the person we are dating and we fail to acknowledge that their wants, needs, desires, and dreams are as important as our own.  I’ve seen recent relationships in my personal life fail because I did not feel the person I was dating respected me as an equal, nor served to be a champion of my dreams.  Likewise, I know I have expected perfection out of people I have dated- perfection that required those men to be just like me.  Had I not held the men I dated to the same OCD-like perfection level I hold myself to, the relationships may have had a different outcome.  Furthermore, had those same men treated me as an equal and listened to my opinion, respected my voice when I expressed concerns and insecurities, and thought of me as a partner- the relationships would also have been different.  In the end, I chose to look for perfection, and the men I dated chose to ignore respect (and some were looking for perfection too- let’s be honest).  It was our choice that made the relationships fail and to not have the Nana/Bubbie love that could have been (footnote- this is of course not saying that all of these relationships should have endured- sometimes people are just not good fits for one another).  Our egos simply did not let the love happen.

If we put away our egos and stop looking for the perfect person, we can find what Nana and Bubbie had- true and undying love- a love that is total and utter acceptance of the other person and a love that allows the participants to be each other’s biggest cheerleader.  That love it out there, but it is our choice to have it.  So get off your butts, stop reading blogs, and go find someone to adore and respect. Go write your own notebook!